Sometimes doing the scary thing can completely change your life for the best. Let’s talk about it!   

This week I’m speaking with Dr. Emee Estacio, who has learned to embrace fear and expand her comfort zone one decision at a time. Fear allows us to pause, assess the risks, and make an informed decision to move forward.   

Fear is NOT the enemy, it is just a sign to evaluate. WHAT AN AMAZING SHIFT!  

 In this episode you’ll learn: 

– Dr. Emee’s TLC Questioning Sequence to help you make a decision when facing down a fear  

– The science and body responses behind fear  

– How to question your fear when you’re scared of starting a new project or making a change  

– How fear can GUIDE you to the right decision 

– How to share your work with the world even though you’re GOING to get bad reviews and you CAN’T please everyone 

– So much more!  

We also talk BOOKS and WRITING! Why the world NEEDS your voice and your perspective. It’s such a treasure-filled conversation. 

Dr. Emee Estacio is the Founder of The PAME Code. She is a chartered psychologist with over 20 years’ experience in health, community, and positive psychology. Her passion is to help people embrace their true worth, so they can live happy and fulfilling lives. Throughout her academic, coaching, and research career, she has worked closely with individuals and communities to unlock their full potential using simple and easy to apply methods for limitless success in life. She is the #1 best-selling author of the “Psychology in Your Life” book series, including titles such as “The Imposter Syndrome Remedy,” “Change Your Life for Good,” and “Fear is Not My Enemy.” She is also now helping aspiring authors fulfil their lifelong ambition to write and publish their own books with her flagship course, “Self-Publishing Made Simple.”  

You can get in touch with Dr. Emee at her website thepamecode.com, and on Instagram @emee_estacio.  

Grab Dr. Emee’s Psychology In Your Life book series on Amazon Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D4GNM74?  

And if you’re NOT on my email list yet… y’all what?? sign up at bit.ly/CaitNotes.

Transcription

62 Emee Estacio

[00:00:00] Caitlin Fisher: Okay. Hello friends, and welcome back to another episode of Run Like Hill Toward Happy. Today we have a special guest, Dr. Emee Estacio, the founder of the PAME Code. She is a chartered psychologist with over 20 years experience in health, community, and positive psychology. Her passion is to help people embrace their true worth so that they can live happy and fulfilling lives.

Throughout her academic coaching and her research career, she has worked closely with individuals and communities to unlock their full potential using simple, easy to apply methods for limitless success in life. She is also the number one bestselling author of The Psychology in Your Life book series, including titles such as The Imposter Syndrome Remedy, Change Your Life for Good and Fear is Not my Enemy.

She also now helps aspiring authors fulfill their lifelong ambition to write and publish their own books with her flagship course. Self-Publishing Made Simple, so I am so excited to have you here, Dr. Emee, and I’m excited to talk writing and books and coaching on that side of things.

But also we’re gonna really dive into this idea that fear is not our enemy. So say hello. Tell us a little about, about you besides, you know, the incredible bio that you sent along. But yeah, let’s get to know each.

[00:01:30] Dr. Emee Estacio: Well, I, I’m so happy to be here. Thank you for having me, Caitlin. And I do love talking about psychology as you read.

You know, I’ve been, I actually started my psychology degree when I was 15 years old. I never really intended to become a psychologist, but when I was 15, I was accepted to med school and my mom said You can go to, you can’t go to med school in terms of your academic, you know, academic skills, but in terms of your level of maturity, and, you know, and social development, maybe you’re not mature enough to go into med school.

Maybe you could do a pre-med course first before you go into med school. So I took her advice. I took psychology as a four year course and I absolutely loved it. So I ended up pursuing my post-graduate degree in psychology, my master’s in health psychology. I did my PhD in community and health psychology. And it just snowballed from there.

And as an academic, again, you know, that was something that I did in terms of my research, in my teaching. I was a university lecturer, but at some point it dawned to me that being in academia was, Constraining. It was quite restrictive and I felt this, this urge to, to go out of those four walls and explore what else the world has to offer and what more can I offer.

I know that I have more that I can give to the world. So I went out of academia. I now am an online entrepreneur based in Greece, you know, been moving around. We’re now based in the beautiful in beautiful Athens and. and now teaching other authors how to write and publish their books. So that’s me.

[00:03:15] Caitlin Fisher: That’s phenomenal. Also, Greece sounds like a gorgeous place to live.

[00:03:21] Dr. Emee Estacio: I know. You know what, Caitlin, That was also an out of the blue decision. It was like in the middle of the pandemic and I was talking to my coach and she said, “what are you still–” I was in the UK at that time. It’s like, “what are you still doing in the uk?”

If you already left your academic position, why are you in this cloudy, gray country? Why don’t you move somewhere sunnier? And I thought, Yeah, that might be a good idea. we had that conversation around April or May, 2020, and we ended up selling everything. Our house, our, our car, everything we owned. We just packed our bags and we, we were here in Greece starting a new life by October, 2020

[00:04:10] Caitlin Fisher: Wow.

[00:04:11] Dr. Emee Estacio: So it happened that quickly in the middle of the pandemic. So it was it was quite something .

[00:04:16] Caitlin Fisher: Wow. That’s an incredible just change to make. I love it.

Yeah. I, And I have to say, I mean, that’s where the fear is not my enemy.

Yeah. Let’s talk about if that was a scary decision for you.

[00:04:30] Dr. Emee Estacio: I mean, for me, with, with me being trained as a psychologist for all my life, I’ve been climbing the academic ladder 20 years of that and to make the decision to leave academia, I was really scared because I was within my comfort zone and I could just stay there. Why leave? It’s called a comfort zone for a reason.

but also my, my body was already telling me. Even years before I’ve made that decision that, you know, it’s time to move on. You know, you, you need to explore other things. You know, this is, you know, that there’s something else in store for you, something bigger for you. Why do you limit yourself here? And you know, it, it was in my mind, I didn’t do anything about it for several years because of the, maybe the fear of failure.

First of all, you know, I’m going into, you know, uncharted territory for me, the fear of judgment, you know, people thinking, “why did she waste her time training” and, you know, gaining all that experience just to leave it. And for me it’s that fear of uncertainty as well. It’s this is something that I’ve been doing for, for most of my adult life and to, to go into something new, it is very scary.

But for me, overcoming that fear, Understanding that yes, it is true that I am experiencing fear and I say fear is not my enemy because it’s a recognition, again, you know, from a psychological point of view, that it is part of our evolution. If we didn’t feel fear, we will just jump straight onto danger.

You know, we will be attacking lions without any preparations because we’re not afraid, right? So fear, Allows us to pause for a little bit, assess what are the risks, what are the dangers, what, what’s our ability or inability to confront that risk, you know, to, to, to manage that risk so that when we decide, you know, when we make that conscious decision to go for it, we could be better prepared physically, psychologically, socially.

That’s why, you know, fear is really important for us humans because when we feel fear, we can assess the circumstance, assess our abilities, assess the consequences, and we can make a more informed decision on what we need to do next.

[00:07:01] Caitlin Fisher: Yes, I love that. I love the idea that like confidence isn’t an absence of fear. It’s doing the thing anyway through the fear because… like we’re always gonna have fear, like you said, expanding the comfort zone and like doing something that is unknown is going to naturally bring fear. And whether that’s small scale fear of like trying a new… Just learning something new, a new skill you know, tiling your own bathroom or, or trying a new medium of painting or something like that.

Even posting a video of you singing online, that can bring a lot of fear, but then also deciding, I’m gonna pack up and move and go live in Greece now. I bet that brings a lot of, of discomfort and fear as well, so I love this idea. There will never be an absence of fear. If there’s an absence of fear, maybe like stop and and check with somebody else, because I think fear is very natural for us.

And fear just says, I’m not sure about this, Like, let’s assess. So —

[00:08:15] Dr. Emee Estacio: yes, it’s, it’s actually your, let’s, let’s take it from a scientific perspective, because you can take it from an intuitive perspective as well. Like your intuition is kicking in, telling you, it’s like, okay you know, pause here for a little bit because there are there are risks, but from a scientific, you know, psychological perspective, it, it is your nervous system actually just trying to protect your physical body, trying to protect your ego, trying to protect your reputation, whatever it may be.

But it is a kind of protection for your survival. You know, That’s why it is there, that that’s why it is in, in the primitive part of, of our brain. You know, it, you know, the, the, the experience, you know, the emotion of fear is so primitive that it allowed us to evolve and to still be here.

So, It’s really important because it, Yeah, it allows us to assess the risk, assess our ability to manage the risk, assess the consequences of taking action or inaction so we can make more informed decisions on what we’re gonna do next. The trouble is there are many people in this day and age that they, that take, they take fear as a sign not to go ahead, you know, because ooh, it is very scary.

But that’s you know, that’s, that’s telling that you actually can go ahead . You can, you know, you don’t really need to stop, but you just need to be better prepared that that’s all it is. And the sad thing is yes, some people get paralyzed by the fear that either their careers stagnate or they stay in a crappy relationship.

You know, because they are scared of what people other people would say or what would happen to them, you know, if they leave this relationship. Because if they are, let’s say for example, dependent on their partner and if they cut their ties with that partner, that is scary because now what? you know? Right?

But again, you know the fear is there. It’s telling you these are the potential risks. These are things that might happen if you do this. What are you going to do to better prepare you for this risk, for these consequences? So when you do do it, you are going to be okay.

[00:10:33] Caitlin Fisher: Yeah. I love that. That is just a fantastic reminder.

So what do you recommend for this sort of risk assessment? How do you help people figure out, like, is this real fear, like, will my life actually end if I do this? Or is this just spooky comfort zone?

[00:10:54] Dr. Emee Estacio: Well, most of the time I, I would encourage my, you know, my clients, and actually these are all if, if you go to Amazon and look for my books, the series is called Psychology in Your Life.

Change Your Life for Good, Imposter Syndrome Remedy, Fear Is Not My Enemy. Even with the imposter syndrome aspect, you know, you, you fear you’re not good enough and you know, you, you feel that you are a fraud or something like that. These are all rooted in fear and one of the strategies that, that I teach in my box is called the TLC questioning sequence.

It’s not Tender Loving Care but I call it the TLC questioning sequence because it encourages you to ask three questions when you hear inner critics or when you’re having these thoughts about yourself, about the scenario that you’re about to embark on and you know, other things that might be bothering you.

TLC means is it true? , Is it logical? Is it constructive? So let’s say for example, you are offered a job promotion and you are afraid to take it because it will mean more responsibility, it will mean more attention. You know, you’ll be put on the spotlight and you are scared that you’re not up for it.

That, that you’re going to fail because you’re not good enough to take on that promotion . When you apply the TLC questioning sequence, TLC first is have a little bit of compassion to yourself. Take good care of yourself. It is okay to feel fear. It is okay to feel self doubt. It is part of our human experience.

And remind yourself that this is you telling yourself, recognizing that there are potential risks, you need to assess the risks, your ability to handle the risk and the consequences. So first of all, TLC, be self-compassionate. It’s okay to feel this way, and then start assessing what are your thoughts and where are these thoughts coming from?

So if you’re saying, I cannot take this promotion because I am not good enough, because I’m going to fail because someone else is better than me, some, whatever it may be. So first of all, you need to be aware of what these thoughts. And then ask the first question, is it true? So, is it true that you’re not competent enough?

Is it true that someone else will be better than you? Is it true that you’re gonna fail? So let’s, let’s dissect it one at a time. Is it true that you’re not good enough? Well, you, you, you’ll know the answer if you apply and if you’re not good enough, then you might get rejected. But until you apply, then you’ll never know the answer, whether that’s true or not, correct?

[00:13:49] Caitlin Fisher: Right.

[00:13:50] Dr. Emee Estacio: So, and then if you are asking yourself, I if, if you’re telling yourself someone else is better than me, let’s say that that is true. But you can move on to the next question. Is it logical? You know, just because someone might be better than you, does that mean that you shouldn’t take a, you know, apply for the promotion?

Does that mean that you don’t have what it takes or you don’t have the same opportunity to apply for it? So even if something is true, or even if you say something like, I don’t think I could take that promotion yet, because I don’t know how to do that aspect of the job yet. You know, I haven’t done my training in this aspect yet.

It might be true, but the next question is, is it logical? Just because you haven’t done that yet, does that mean, you can’t do that. If, if that makes sense. This actually is applicable to many people who want to start new careers. This would be applic applicable to people who are starting new projects. You know, it’s something new and they would say you know, I haven’t done this before.

It’s very scary. First question, Is it true that you’ve never done it before? Yes, it’s true, but it’s okay. The next question is, is it logical? Just because you haven’t done it before, it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t do it at all. So that’s the second question. Is it true? Is it logical? And then the third question is, is it constructive with all of these thoughts that are spinning in your head?

Is it benefiting you? Is it helping you in any way? Or is there something that you can do about this, these thoughts to benefit you in any way? So for example, if you are saying you’re starting a project and you’re saying, I’m not skilled enough, I don’t have this skill yet to do this project, it is true.

The logical thing is okay, just because I haven’t done it before doesn’t mean I can’t do it at all. And the constructive bit. Okay. What can I do to, to upskill myself or what can I do to prepare myself as I go into this project? Yeah, so it’s, it’s not that the fear should stop you. The fear should guide you in, you know, in a way that you will make more informed decisions, so you will be better prepared when you make that decision to actually go for it.

So you can do the TLC technique. Be aware of what your thoughts, you know, your inner critics or what have you are telling you. Be aware of what they are. Show compassion to the, to, to yourself that you have these thoughts. It’s okay to think these thoughts, but once you are aware, ask, is it true? Is it logical, Is it constructive?

And in that way, you will understand whether they are lies , whether they are irrational. Or if they are true and rational, then you will also, you can also find ways to better prepare yourself, make informed decisions. So when you do what you are supposed to do, but you are scared to do it, you’re better prepared, then you’re more in a more confident position to go for it because you’ve, you’ve weighed your, your risks, the consequences in your ability to manage the risks.

[00:17:17] Caitlin Fisher: I love this. I’ve never heard of tlc, obviously, because you made it up. So I’m very excited to get your books and learn more about this. So I, I am someone who loves to explore thought work in my coaching, self-coaching, when I’m being coached, when I’m coaching others, I love to identify the thoughts individually and then sort of pick at them like this, like deconstruct them a little, take a look at what’s underneath them. And I often find that those not good enough thoughts or the imposter syndrome and everything that’s, that’s usually fear. It’s it’s fear of failing. It’s fear of wild success and not knowing what to do with it.

It’s, it’s fear of your family finding out that what you do on the weekends is, I don’t know, dancing intuitively at an art studio. And you think they’ll think that’s weird. Like we have a lot of fears and a lot of that comes from what people will think of us. So do you specifically work, work on that sort of the, the outside fear versus inside fear?

Does that come up for you and your clients?

[00:18:26] Dr. Emee Estacio: Well, actually it is. It’s both. It’s both. So I, I work a lot with, as you know, authors and the fear that they experience is imposter syndrome. Like, who am I to write this? People are going to judge me. And even after they’ve written their books they are like super experts in their field.

They’ve already finished writing their books. For goodness sake, like you’ve written a book, and they are scared to hit that publish button. Maybe because I’m attracting people who are very similar to me. , the maladaptive perfectionist, . You know, I’m talking about, you know, it’s like these

[00:19:05] Caitlin Fisher: Oh, I know, I know who you’re talking about cuz you’re talking about me.

[00:19:08] Dr. Emee Estacio: Yeah, I know, right? Like, it’s not good enough. I can make it better. Oh, know, what will people say? You know, that kind of stuff. We do look into that. We assess the internal fear first, like where is that coming from? And sometimes what comes up is it usually comes up from their childhood. Like a teacher will will tell them that your, your writing is so bad, you know, you should never even try to think about writing as a, as a profession.

Or maybe a family member told them. It’s like writing it is like, ugh. Why would you want to do that? So there are a lot of unresolved childhood messages that they have internalized or this thing around maladaptive perfectionism that everything needs to be perfect before you hit the, you know, before you do anything.

And we do understand that yes, there. There are many ways that we can still perfect or refine, you know, refine. It could never be perfect. There are still many ways that we could refine. Our work. But what I encourage my, you know, my clients to, to think about and, and this is one of the exercises that we do before we start working, is we talk about their reason for writing a book.

We talk about what is the purpose, what is the impact that you want to make by writing your book? And often, as I’ve said earlier, I do, I do tend to attract people who are very similar to me. People who are mission driven, you know, purpose driven, heart centered people who just want to help others. They, they want to, for example, help others leave an abusive relationship. You know, I have people who are animal healers. I have people who help other people to set, start their own business, you know, because that’s, you know, that’s the legacy that they want to bring. But these are people who are so mission driven that they want to write and publish a book because that’s the way that they can reach as many people as they can crossing borders, and even crossing generations.

So that’s their dream. That’s their passion. And when they get to the point where they are questioning the value of their work, whether they are questioning whether it’s good enough or not, we go back. You know, we go back to what they’ve told me, when, when we first met, The reason why you’ve written your book is because you want to help other people.

And if you’re holding onto this piece of work because you’re scared that there, there will be typos even if you’ve already given it to your editor and your editor gave you the green light already, like a dozen or people ad you know, a dozen or so advanced readers have already said, Oh my goodness, this is amazing.

You should publish it. And still you’re questioning yourself that it’s not good enough. Just trust that those people who are desperate to hear your message will not be so concerned about the things that you’re concerned about. Those little typos, you know, the editor would’ve spotted that already, but.

Just think about the people whose lives will be different because you had the courage to share your work. That’s, you know, that’s where sort of the, the, the fear melts. They take this recognition that, yes I am scared, I am scared. It is fine. There are others who are even more scared because of the kind of life that they are living.

And if I share with them what I have to share through my book then I have done my job. So that melts it away. It’s not about them anymore, it’s about the people they are serving. So dealing with that internal struggle and recognizing that there are external factors as well. We do recognize that putting your book out there to the public, it will be open to criticism.

[00:23:03] Caitlin Fisher: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:03] Dr. Emee Estacio: So if you are afraid that people are going to say, Just get ready, you know, just be prepared for people to say stuff because it’s gonna happen. Yeah. So that’s it, you know, we do acknowledge it. We do acknowledge the fear. We don’t try to crush it. We acknowledge where it’s coming from and then we try to resolve it internally and externally as well.

[00:23:26] Caitlin Fisher: That’s fantastic. And also, As someone who, I’m a published author and I would go back and change stuff like I would, I have changed a lot since I wrote my book, and I’m still really glad that I wrote it, you know? And who I was when I wrote it represents who I was. And I, I did it anyway. You know, so I’m, I, sometimes that fear comes up where I’m a little afraid to write more because I’ve experienced that once and, you know, had had a few regrets like, Oh, I wish I, I wish I had been more well versed on this topic.

Or, I wish, you know, like if you had caught me six months later, like, this part would’ve been different. And, but I can’t be mad because I wrote a book and that’s awesome.

[00:24:16] Dr. Emee Estacio: Yeah. And it, it’s a learning experience as well. That’s the other thing. And with self-publishing these days, you could always have a second edition

[00:24:25] Caitlin Fisher: Yes.

[00:24:26] Dr. Emee Estacio: With a Kindle version you could update the manuscript as well if, if you would like to update it. But I, I mean for, for, for our society. You know, it’s failing, quote unquote failing is something that we actually should experience in our lives from time to time, but it’s not necessarily should be considered a failure when you’re actually learning from it.

It’s a life experience. It’s called it that it’s a life experience.

[00:24:54] Caitlin Fisher: Yeah.

[00:24:55] Dr. Emee Estacio: You can learn from it and progress from it. And it’s something that will help you to develop and grow as a person. So if you are afraid that, you know, there might be mistakes or you might regret some things, there might be some, but you know, it’s, it’s part of life and you could and what I tell my students as well is, no, don’t just hit the publish button, cross your fingers and hope for the best. You know, do get people to read it for you first, you know, Because sometimes we are so close to our work that, you know, we can miss a few things here and there, but if you had a good pool of people already telling you it’s, it’s good, you know, please do share it.

Trust that these are people who are honest. And you know, have, you know, they have the best intentions at heart. You know, when, when I ask my clients to organize their first batch of advanced readers, you know, I ask them to get people who can be brutally honest to them, who would not be afraid to tell them if it is really crap.

Because that way when they give the go signal, They have the confidence that, you know, these people have read my work and, and they liked it, and now it’s, it’s ready to, to be shared with the world.

[00:26:04] Caitlin Fisher: Yeah, that’s great. And there’s so much fear in just that part too. Like I remember when my agent sent out my proposal for feedback, just the proposal, like he got feedback from three readers of the proposal, and it took me a week or two to even open that email and read their feedback.

I was like, Whew, I don’t know, what if it’s really bad. And no, it was all helpful. It was honestly true, logical, and constructive feedback. So we hit that, that TLC mark from an external place. And I also wanna circle back to what you said about reviews and critics. It’s, it’s hilarious how much people will give a one star review to a book that they haven’t read.

[00:26:49] Dr. Emee Estacio: I know, right?

[00:26:51] Caitlin Fisher: And like some of my favorite reviews are the one stars where I’m like, You clearly like didn’t read it or get it. And what I learned really early on was: the book’s not for them. Like that just wasn’t, I have started reading some books and been like, This isn’t for me. Even if it’s by an author who I love.

So, you know, Stephen King for example, he has a lot of sort of thriller psychological stuff and then he has some like really gory horror and I can’t read the gory horror.

[00:27:25] Dr. Emee Estacio: It’s not for you.

[00:27:26] Caitlin Fisher: It’s not for me. Even though Stephen King is for me sometimes. And that’s, it’s just gotta be okay. Yeah. I’ve also found typos in his books, so, I love Stephen King as like a writer because everybody knows that he’s famous and everybody, a lot of writers at least, know that he has like that, the railroad spike where he was putting his rejection letters, he just kept putting them on. And it used to be a nail and then he had to upgrade it to a railroad spike because he got so many rejections and he kept doing it. And he’s living his best writer life, being a weird guy who lives in Maine. And like, that’s what I wanna do. I wanna be a weird guy who lives in Ohio.

You know, like just, just vibing with my dog and teaching people about how to go for their passions. and sometimes there’s fear in that, and sometimes I’m not for everybody, but that doesn’t mean that my work is bad.

[00:28:25] Dr. Emee Estacio: Yeah. That’s, that’s a recognition that I think people need to understand. Not, not really to take it that personally, although some reviews will take it personally as, but it’s not your problem.

They have their own issues. . Yes. So just to have that compassion as well. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s some being thrown at you, not because of you, but because they are dealing with their own personal issues. So, . Yeah. Some of the, like with my students sometimes they will, There was one instance where my student got a one star review and it is clearly because it is a racist re- review if you like.

And when that happens, you, you, you can, you can be confident that, Oh, okay, this is the issue is not me. Yeah. Clearly that that particular person has their own issues. And the other thing is with, with Amazon, you could actually report it as abuse. Like if it is really unfair and really personally, like has nothing to do with the book and it’s just prejudice because of your background or whatever, you can report it as abuse, and Amazon can take that down.

[00:29:34] Caitlin Fisher: Nice. Good to know. Because yeah, sometimes, especially with, with people when they’re just angry about, Race or wokeness. I love, I love that when that comes out, like, Oh, you have a, you have a queer non-binary person in your book.

What’s with the wokeness? Like , we exist. Like why are you so mad?

So yeah, that separation of the review from your personal value as a writer or a creator or anything, because some people love heavy metal, and some people don’t. And that doesn’t make heavy metal bad. That makes people have preferences. And in my opinion, if you’re trying to make something that everyone likes, your product is very bland.

[00:30:25] Dr. Emee Estacio: It’s vanilla .

[00:30:27] Caitlin Fisher: Yeah. Yeah. It’s table salt. Like yeah, everybody likes, everybody likes put little sprinkle of table salt on their food. But what are you doing? What are you being like, I want to be more than table salt.

[00:30:40] Dr. Emee Estacio: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And yeah, you, you’re absolutely right. It’s not, if it’s not, you’re, you’re not going to please everyone.

So, Yeah. When, when it comes to the fear of judgment, you know, the fear of criticism. Especially as, you know, as my students are about to hit the publish button, that comes up a lot. Actually, the most common is the maladaptive perfection is I have to say like, Oh, I can’t do it. I’m here. I might have missed something.

You know, that’s the most common one. But the, the, the fear of rejection. The fear of rejection, actually what I’ve noticed, it’s not the fear of the stranger. Criticisms is the fear of their family and friends and the people who know them. What would they say when they publish their books? And, and again, I would ask the question, why did you write the book?

Did you write it for them? Is it for them? If you say no, then you are writing it for the people you want to serve. Think of them, think of what they will say and. It will benefit them rather than the people who don’t really have anything to do with your book, ignore them. You know, just brush it aside. It’s not really that relevant.

Don’t let that stop you from sharing what you have to share because of your fear of judgment from people who don’t really matter that much.

[00:32:03] Caitlin Fisher: Yeah, That’s, yeah, that’s another great point, especially with I saw something recently about pre-ordering, and if you just have all of your family and friends pre-order, that can actually hurt your rankings on Amazon because if it doesn’t match stuff that they normally read, the algorithm gets very confused trying to figure out where your book fits in.

So the recommendation is like if you’re writing a crime thriller, you need to market that really hard to people who love crime thrillers, and then have your family and friends buy it later. You want the algorithm to know this is for people who love crime thrillers. So like kind of thinking about the criticism like that as well.

Like maybe if, if you’re just getting your criticism from friends and family, that’s definitely gonna feel different than criticism from strangers. But like, who was it for? And thinking about who it’s for and that why actually in my program where I help people write their, their books or courses or whatever, It’s, we go in like 90 day sprints to get like one goal done, and one of the first activities that I have them do is digging very deep into the why behind their work.

So it’s like, why are you writing this? And then why is that important to you? Why is that important? Why is that important? And by the time you have dug down, it’s like something very raw and very human and very elemental. It’s about how that work shows up in the world. Instead of being like, because I want to be a writer.

It’s like, because I want to normalize sharing this story of healing and I want to be. I want to be that for other people who have been through this, like I want them to know that they’re not alone.

[00:33:56] Dr. Emee Estacio: That’s that wider contribution. You’re absolutely right. And when it comes to asking the why, you know, what is your purpose?

There are many, many layers of, of what the purpose is at at the beginning. If, if you are just looking at it from. You know, a an outer layer perspective. You know, maybe you just want to write a book, you know, it’s a dream to become an author, da da da da da. But as you dig deeper, there’s more that why, why you want to be that person.

And for as, as I’ve mentioned earlier, for the kind of… for, for most of the people that I support in my community, they are very heart centered, mission driven, and these are people who want to make a contribution, like a, a lasting legacy or at least change the discourse or, you know, change the conversations around the topic that they’re writing about.

For example, I have one student, Wendy Andrew, she wrote a book about coping with pet loss, you know, coping with the death of your pet. And she didn’t write it just to help other people to cope with their pet. You know, that’s the main, you know, that’s the main topic. You know, the, that, that’s what she wrote about.

But the underlying reason is because she wants to show people that this is an emotion that in, in an experience that people actually struggle with that in society. Some people might brush it off. What? You’re crying for your cat? It’s just a cat. You know? She, she wants to show that for for many people who, who have pets and when their pets pass away, it’s a very difficult emotion because it’s a family member or maybe it’s, it’s, they consider it like a family member or it’s their only companion, you know. So her real purpose is to contribute to the discussion, making sure that you know, pet loss is not what do you, it’s like, what was the term that she used?

Disenfranchised grief or something like that. Yeah. It’s something that you recognize, an experience that people actually feel and, and they do need support. And it’s not something that you just brush on the side because it’s quote unquote just a pet. So that is her purpose and that, you know drove her forward, you know, kept her anchored in terms of why she’s doing what she’s doing, and it is so much bigger than her that whenever she questioned her value or whether it is worth continuing with her work, she has this mission, she has this agenda to contribute to this conversation.

[00:36:38] Caitlin Fisher: Yeah, that’s, that’s so important too, because I, when I lost my cat, when she passed away and I had had her for 11 years. She was 18 years old, and she had been with me through like 10 moves, two divorces. She had been with me through every hardship in my life as an adult. I adopted her when I was 21. And so she had been with me like through everything.

And so losing her was so devastating. It absolutely wrecked me. And I am probably about to cry about it right now, but like I still cry about it. And she passed in January, 2021, so it’s been nearly two years and it’s still, It’s still hurts. And I think it always will. She was such a part of my life and she was such a companion to me and.

I love that cat so much, and, you know, I have since gotten a dog and that was like a great way to sort of start healing because she would never have tolerated a dog . So it’s always like, okay, when when Zoe dies, I will, I will get a dog. And it, that one took a while as well. But I love my dog and it’s nice because like, she’s definitely not a cat.

Like it doesn’t feel like I was trying to replace her , like I was trying to replace Zoe because Gwen, my Corgi is… Not the same .

[00:38:11] Dr. Emee Estacio: Yeah, of course.

[00:38:12] Caitlin Fisher: But it does, It gets like easier to manage, I think. And so I love, I love the idea of like writing and normalizing grief around pets because to some people, sure they’re just animals, but to others they are so important and such a part of the family.

[00:38:30] Dr. Emee Estacio: Part of their family. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah, for, for Wendy, she, she’s so passionate about it that, yeah, she wrote, she wrote the book to. The grieving, you know if, if your pet passed away, you know, it’s, it’s to help you cope with that. But her main mission was just to contribute to this discussion.

you know, she really wants to show the world that people actually do suffer. You know, did they grieve for the loss of their pet? And it’s not something that you, you can just brush away just because you don’t feel the same way.

[00:39:05] Caitlin Fisher: Yeah, related to the idea of just being part of the discussion is like people who get kind of imposter syndrome around, Well, am I the best person to write about this?

Am I enough of an expert? And I actually had a client we worked together just for three months. Like that’s like the package that, that we worked out. But we did one on one work for three months. Something that I said very early on resonated with her and completely changed, like how she shows up in her, her creative work, and it was, Do you think that you have to be the first or the best in order for your work to matter.

And she was just like, Holy crap, oh my God, you popped the bubble. Because that that sense that we have to be the first, We have to be the best, we have to be the coolest. We have to be the most unique. Like yeah, if you want a niche, you can niche, but also no.

Like any… so I’ve sold less than a thousand copies of my book. And it’s traditionally published. So like I have publishers who, who sell it and they’re doing marketing, which is great. Cause if it was up to me, I probably would’ve sold like 10. So , so say a thousand people, and let’s say it resonated really deeply for 500 of them. That’s great. 500 people, I made 500 people feel seen and loved and like they are not crazy for wanting more out of life.

Mm. That’s a big impact. Even if it’s only 500 people. Even if it’s only 10. Just being part of the discussion. I don’t have to be a best seller. I don’t have to be the world’s leading expert. I can just be part of the discussion. I can be a voice that lets people know that they are not alone, and that’s very powerful when we’re dealing with this perfectionism and this imposter syndrome and all the reasons why we don’t wanna hit publish.

[00:41:00] Dr. Emee Estacio: Yes. And, and I have to say on that note, Caitlin, there are some of my students, one of their hesitations even before they start writing their books is they, they would say something like, Oh, but there are so many books on this topic already. What else can I contribute? There’s nothing else to say.

Well, actually, Your voice is not there yet. Your perspective is not there yet. Your experience is not there yet. And there are, there will be people like you who will resonate because who will resonate with what you have to say because you, you share the same values. Maybe you have the same background but there is only one you and your voice is missing.

So if you think that there are many books written about this particular topic. You haven’t written yours yet. Where’s your voice? You know, add your voice to the con- to the conversation. You know, add your voice to, you know, contribute there. If, if you want to be, you don’t, as you’ve said, you don’t have to be the best. You don’t have to be the first. You don’t have to be, you know, the only person there. Even if there are already other books or many, many books written about this topic. Your voice is not there yet, and if you are so passionate about this topic, that’s the reason to actually go for it and, and contribute through your book.

[00:42:24] Caitlin Fisher: Yeah, I love that. That was, that felt very good, spiritually like, yes, your voice just matters because it does. So go forth and do it. And whether you wanna be traditionally published, you wanna find an agent, you wanna self-publish and market yourself, there’s space for all of that. There’s, there is a path for your book to become a reality.

I love it. I love it so much. So, as we kind of wrap up, come to a close here. Can you tell us a bit more about your publishing course and about how you work with clients, in case our listeners would like to, to get in on this?

[00:43:09] Dr. Emee Estacio: Oh, sure. Well, there are different ways to work with me. I do have many workshops.

So if you’re someone who’s, if you have a business, for example, and you want to use your book as a way to grow your business, I have a course called Content to Clients. It’s a mini workshop. If you are someone who’s already written a book and thinking about publishing it, I have the best seller Launch made simple mini workshop.

So these are like self-paced workshops that you could digest within, you know, an hour and a half and then implement it in your own time. But what I really, really enjoy doing is actually my membership. You know, the self-publishing made simple membership where we meet you know, we meet as a community.

We have monthly huddles, live q and a’s, we have co-working sessions. So I really enjoy that because Sure, the course is there. But yeah, writing and publishing it can feel quite isolating. And, you know, your brain can do silly things. , if you, I mean, you start hearing all these inner critics and, and where you’re gonna talk to.

So in my membership, we do get together in our huddles, in our coworking sessions, and chat and check on how people are doing. Are you getting on with your work? Are you know, are you stopping yourself from hitting that publish button. The sequence, how to do it, how to publish it is in the course. But yeah, the membership is really more about coming together as a community. Huddles, coworking sessions and just really encouraging each other to hit that publish button, follow the sequence.

Obviously have a strategy. We do have a strategy to launch your book. Particularly on Amazon doing market research, keyword research, category research, not kind of stuff, all the strategy stuff. But when it comes to the psychology and the mindset and the accountability, that’s where the membership comes in.

And if people are interested, they can follow me on Instagram at emee_estacio, you’ll see all of my stuff on there, and if they want to reach me, Hit me with a dm, you know, I’m very friendly.

[00:45:19] Caitlin Fisher: Excellent. Yes. You are very friendly. I can, I can attest. I think it’s so interesting because when I developed my course, this sort of like incubator with the 90 day sprints, I also have like a weekly coaching. I’ve got coworking. The next time I run it I’m gonna do like a workshop where we can read and sort of edit in real time. And I just think it’s interesting that both of us, having never met each other, developed something so similar, like this combination of like skill building and mindset work. It’s gorgeous.

I love, I love meeting new coaches

[00:45:51] Dr. Emee Estacio: it’s, it’s one thing to know what you need to do. Okay? The strategies there, we need to know what we need to do, but to actually implement it. Yeah, there are many mindset blocks, maybe even external blocks that will stop you from implementing. But when you are in a community, you don’t just limit it in your head and just let it brew in your head.

Talk with people, connect with people, get you moving forward and block what you need to unblock and, and that’s how you progress and that’s how you make things happen.

[00:46:22] Caitlin Fisher: Yes, I love that. I will say that I don’t have like those technical, Here’s how to publish on Amazon. So if you’ve got a book and you’re ready, you want Dr. Emee. And if you need to reach deep into your soul and yank your book out, you got me for that. So we are like, we got a dream team going here. Just dig real deep, rip it out, and then make it very presentable and publish it and make money.

[00:46:51] Dr. Emee Estacio: That’s the idea.

[00:46:53] Caitlin Fisher: That is gorgeous. I love it. And I will put all of your links and everything in the notes for this episode. I wanna thank you so much for taking time out of your evening. I know it’s, it’s getting toward like dinner and bedtime in Greece. The beautiful Greece where you get to live every day.

[00:47:09] Dr. Emee Estacio: I know. It’s just, Yeah, I feel, Can’t believe I’m here.

[00:47:13] Caitlin Fisher: That’s amazing.

[00:47:14] Dr. Emee Estacio: You know what, we actually live right next to the Marble Stadium.

This is where the first modern Olympics happened, and it’s just in our backyard, so it’s like whenever I need quiet time, I just go on top of that stadium and just, And I could see Acropolis from there too. It’s like I cannot believe where I am. It’s just absolutely beautiful .

[00:47:36] Caitlin Fisher: Okay, so I’m gonna go Google how to move to Greece, and yeah, we’ll be in touch.

I’m so excited to keep in touch with you. I’ll let you know when this episode is live and we can share it all over. And I just wanna thank you again for your time in this gorgeous conversation.

[00:47:52] Dr. Emee Estacio: Thanks for having me.

[00:47:53] Caitlin Fisher: Absolutely. Bye!

Bye.